Japan's thoughts on creepy otaku

[dokool]

Originally Posted by Mollybibbles We automatically apply a negative connotation to the word "otaku". Frankly, such a stereotype can't be singularly male, seeing as I've seen more than my share of females guilty of a lot of what was described above.

You could make that argument, sure, but this survey was specifically asking women about male otaku. I'm sure if you asked men to describe their issues with female otaku there'd be much different answers (although quite frankly I'd be hard-pressed to guess what they'd be; women here are generally less open about it than men or at least better at hiding it, except when they're tearing through the doujinshi racks at Mandarake).


I think what many American otaku (particularly the younger generation who have grown up with it being so readily available) also fail to realize is that there's a HUGE difference between how the concept "otaku" is percieved by the US and Japan, mostly because the barriers for entry are so different. In Japan, you can read One Piece or watch Macross F or see the Eva movie in theaters and, to your friends, still be considered a normal dude who simply likes that particular show. If you get a K-ON! cellphone strap or change your ringtone to the theme from Lucky Star, your friends may make a joke or two at your expense. If you proudly show off your collection of figures and talk about how you're spending your year-end bonus at Comiket? That makes you an otaku, and that's when girls stop returning phone calls and it's all downhill from there.

No matter how far the West has come in terms of distribution and quality of releases (even getting into simulcasting and the like w/ CrunchyRoll etc), some people don't realize (or refuse to realize) that anime is and probably will forever be a niche subculture. However, it's a successful subculture because it exists in a society that permits it. America's had large-scale science fiction conventions forever. Geek is the new cool, cons flourish because they allow nerdy kids to make friends without shooting up the school, and the normals at the hotel get a fun story about the goofy kids in costume to tell your friends.

But that sort of event doesn't exist in Japan, where conformity is encouraged and nonconformity that cannot be controlled to some extent is the root of all that plagues society. Comiket is basically an Artist's Alley the size of several football fields, and the industry events run by studios are nothing more than canned interviews and preview rolls. Anyone remember AX 2004 Tokyo? They tried to export the US concept of an anime con to Japan and got around 4,000 attendees. This, in a country whose biggest convention (Comiket) gets 200,000 attendees per day. What's wrong with this picture?

The article is an accurate picture of male otaku in Japan; you could probably write a similar-sounding one for otaku in America but with a few changes allowing for differences in environment. We've all seen That Guy at anime cons, and we all generally understand that That Guy isn't the ideal. The question is, should That Guy be praised and encouraged (which is what some in this thread apparently think), should That Guy be shunned and permitted to do his thing as long as he does it by himself (which is pretty much what happens in Japan), or is there a third way?


tl;dr Molly gets the point (or is at least the closest to it), everyone else strikes out hard. I weep for the future of the fandom.

Originally Posted by dokool tl;dr Molly gets the point (or is at least the closest to it), everyone else strikes out hard. I weep for the future of the fandom.

Don't you think thats a bit harsh, you could offend someone

[dokool]

Originally Posted by Zero Gravity Don't you think thats a bit harsh, you could offend someone

*shrug* would you prefer everyone live in a bubble where they are free from any notion that challenges their worldview? Must yours and everyone's life be free of offense?

I found this article absolutely fascinating because it shows how otaku in Japan and in the US (who aren't even the focus of this article, as everyone but maybe Molly seems to realize) live in completely different spheres. In the US, otaku (the western variant) basically interact with their own kind and are accepted (insofar as there are various levels of 'accepted') for who they are among that kind, and rarely pop out elsewhere. In Japan, they're somewhere near burakumin and foreigners on the low end of the totem pole, because societal pressures kept them from ever really receiving that kind of 'support group'. I was actually hoping for a genuine discussion on this, instead there is herp and derp from most sides.

[EagleEyes]

Originally Posted by dokool *shrug* would you prefer everyone live in a bubble where they are free from any notion that challenges their worldview? Must yours and everyone's life be free of offense? I found this article absolutely fascinating because it shows how otaku in Japan and in the US (who aren't even the focus of this article, as everyone but maybe Molly seems to realize) live in completely different spheres. In the US, otaku (the western variant) basically interact with their own kind and are accepted (insofar as there are various levels of 'accepted') for who they are among that kind, and rarely pop out elsewhere. In Japan, they're somewhere near burakumin and foreigners on the low end of the totem pole, because societal pressures kept them from ever really receiving that kind of 'support group'. I was actually hoping for a genuine discussion on this, instead there is herp and derp from most sides.

Kinda how a conversation works....

Person 1: Herp!

Person 2: Derp?

Person 1 Herp Herpa Derp!

[dokool]

Originally Posted by EagleEyes Kinda how a conversation works.... Person 1: Herp! Person 2: Derp? Person 1 Herp Herpa Derp!

This post alone has about as much cultural value as about 95% of what gets posted to the internet, sadly. But you're also not bothering much to debate my point so I take it as a moral victory if nothing else.

[EagleEyes]

Originally Posted by dokool What do you think? ----------------------------

Originally Posted by ZshadowX Guess being an otaku makes me creepy then T~T some of it I dont really agree, but at the same time I do agree(i dont make sense at all) sure some otakus do some of those, but still they're human beings I just dont like the idea of people talking down on Otakus(It breaks my heart) people are starting to thinks Otakus are just perverts, but in fact they're just being true to them self and wont let anyone change them to something they are not for me an Otaku is a nerd or a geek but in a very high level Plz dont hate on Otaku ~ IMO Btw People should start watching or reading Welcome to the N.H.K.

Originally Posted by dokool It sounds like you've missed the entire point of the article; that it's not necessarily being an otaku but how you present yourself that people remember.

When one asks for another's opinion, it usually isn't an opportunity to assess if they are correct or not. Or does not abide by your predetermined rulings of "genuine discussion"

Originally Posted by dokool This was not an opinion piece, but a poll of Japanese women (I would guess they solicited 500-1000 responses, I'll see if I can find the data).

Just a thought but isn't a poll a collection of opinions?




I am all for an actual discussion but informing people that they have missed the point with their own opinion of a source, which supposedly, was never an "Opinion" piece to begin with is just plain ludicrous.

[Shadowrun20XX]

Originally Posted by dokool I think what many American otaku (particularly the younger generation who have grown up with it being so readily available) also fail to realize is that there's a HUGE difference between how the concept "otaku" is percieved by the US and Japan,

You ain't kidding. Nearly all the newfans i've run into in Vegas have been from the CN generation. We've existed long before that.

Originally Posted by dokool You could make that argument, sure, but this survey was specifically asking women about male otaku. I'm sure if you asked men to describe their issues with female otaku there'd be much different answers (although quite frankly I'd be hard-pressed to guess what they'd be; women here are generally less open about it than men or at least better at hiding it, except when they're tearing through the doujinshi racks at Mandarake). I think what many American otaku (particularly the younger generation who have grown up with it being so readily available) also fail to realize is that there's a HUGE difference between how the concept "otaku" is percieved by the US and Japan, mostly because the barriers for entry are so different. In Japan, you can read One Piece or watch Macross F or see the Eva movie in theaters and, to your friends, still be considered a normal dude who simply likes that particular show. If you get a K-ON! cellphone strap or change your ringtone to the theme from Lucky Star, your friends may make a joke or two at your expense. If you proudly show off your collection of figures and talk about how you're spending your year-end bonus at Comiket? That makes you an otaku, and that's when girls stop returning phone calls and it's all downhill from there. No matter how far the West has come in terms of distribution and quality of releases (even getting into simulcasting and the like w/ CrunchyRoll etc), some people don't realize (or refuse to realize) that anime is and probably will forever be a niche subculture. However, it's a successful subculture because it exists in a society that permits it. America's had large-scale science fiction conventions forever. Geek is the new cool, cons flourish because they allow nerdy kids to make friends without shooting up the school, and the normals at the hotel get a fun story about the goofy kids in costume to tell your friends. But that sort of event doesn't exist in Japan, where conformity is encouraged and nonconformity that cannot be controlled to some extent is the root of all that plagues society. Comiket is basically an Artist's Alley the size of several football fields, and the industry events run by studios are nothing more than canned interviews and preview rolls. Anyone remember AX 2004 Tokyo? They tried to export the US concept of an anime con to Japan and got around 4,000 attendees. This, in a country whose biggest convention (Comiket) gets 200,000 attendees per day. What's wrong with this picture? The article is an accurate picture of male otaku in Japan; you could probably write a similar-sounding one for otaku in America but with a few changes allowing for differences in environment. We've all seen That Guy at anime cons, and we all generally understand that That Guy isn't the ideal. The question is, should That Guy be praised and encouraged (which is what some in this thread apparently think), should That Guy be shunned and permitted to do his thing as long as he does it by himself (which is pretty much what happens in Japan), or is there a third way? tl;dr Molly gets the point (or is at least the closest to it), everyone else strikes out hard. I weep for the future of the fandom.

In Confucian thought core to a East Asian System is the belief of "Striking down the standing up nail" This is true in Japan because of its conformity, strong emphasis on education, and stern family social mobility. However, anyone that says that Japan is "random", "weird", "crazy" because of the complex subcultures around Ikeburo and at the conventions isn't seeing the full picture. The subcultures are still that... a sub-strata of society just like the sci-fi conventions in America.
My belief is along yours and Molly in agreement. However Japan is an interesting place in that the rural vs. urban aspects, the old vs. new, west vs. Japan, asia vs. Japan and more combinations of cultural norms collide in Japan. Though things in Japan are different because Japan's history and culture are so complex. When conformity doesn't give kids the answers they go to subcultures for acceptance, entertainment, and what ever these things give you.